创作自由是最有价值的条件：对话小麦｜Interview with Mr. René Meile
Interview with Mr. René Meile
原文标题：
创作自由是最有价值的条件：对话小麦
Creative freedom is the most valuable condition: Interview with Mr. René Meile
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从麦勒画廊的基层员工到分管亚洲地区业务的联合总监，小麦先生自2005年随父亲乌斯·麦勒来到北京，一路见证了麦勒画廊的历程和中国当代艺术的发展繁荣。作为最早一批登陆中国的外资画廊，麦勒画廊在展览开拓与艺术创作中始终有自己独到的选择与判断。日前刚刚在北京麦勒画廊开幕的展览《邱世华：空/不空》将持续到“画廊周北京”开幕，小麦先生表示这次展览不仅是对艺术家邱世华八十大寿的贺礼，也是对后疫情北京艺术圈的信心支持，一切都会尽快回到正常的轨道上。艺讯网在疫情期间也对小麦先生进行了专访谈谈创作与展览、研究、收藏之间密不可分的关系。
From a primary-level staff member to the Co-Director in charge of business of Asia in Galerie Urs Meile, Mr. René Meile has witnessed the history of Galerie Urs Meile and the developments and prosperity of contemporary Chinese Art since he came to Beijing with his father, Urs Meile. As one of the earliest foreign-funded galleries landed in China, Galerie Urs Meile always has its own choices and judgment in exhibition development and artistic creations. The exhibition “Qiu Shihua: Empty/Not Empty” just opened last weekend at Galerie Urs Meile in Beijing will continue until the opening of “Gallery Weekend Beijing”. Mr. René Meile expressed that this exhibition did not only offer a celebration on the 80th birthday of Qiu Shihua, but it also confidently showed support for the post-pandemic art circle in Beijing, everything will return to the normal track as soon as possible. During the pandemic spread, CAFA ART INFO has also conducted a special interview with Mr. René Meile to discuss the inseparable relations between creation, exhibition, research and collection.
小麦先生
Mr. René Meile
受访人：小麦
Interviewee: Mr. René Meile
采访人& 编辑：Sue Wang
Interviewer & Editor: Sue Wang
采访时间：2020年3月24日
Interview Date: March 24, 2020
艺讯网：麦勒画廊作为最早一批介入中国当代艺术圈的外资画廊之一，符合了大多数业内人士对画廊的预期：具备专业学识和鉴赏力，与代理艺术家共同成长，能够支持和赞助市场反映还不够热烈的艺术家们；作为麦勒画廊现在的执掌人，您对麦勒画廊经营的定位和目标是什么？以下三点您觉得哪个是最重要的？学术的意义与地位，市场的成功，藏家的支持和认可？
CAFA ART INFO: As one of the earliest foreign-funded galleries involved in the Chinese contemporary art scene, Galerie Urs Meile meets the expectations of most people in the field of art, having professional knowledge and appreciation, growing together with artists so that the gallery represents and brings to sponsorship to artists who have not received an enthusiastic response from the art market; as the current owner and director of Galerie Urs Meile, what are the position and goal for your operation? Which of the following three points do you think is the most important? Academic significance and status, market success, support and recognition from collectors?
小麦先生：从历史上来看，通常是收藏家和艺术赞助人在很大程度上支持了艺术家们，并帮助他们在相应的艺术史背景下确立了自己的位置。收藏家常常可以利用自己的洞察力与能量来支持和影响学术研究。
但是由于学术研究和收藏的动机是彼此独立的，因此很难进行比较。它们是同一生态系统中的组成部分，如果任何一部分占据了主导地位，该生态系统都将无法运行。从长远来看，艺术家和艺术史学者都会因个体收藏家的支持和认可而受益，画廊则是两者之间的连接点。
Mr. René Meile: Historically, it has quite often been collectors, patrons of the arts, which supported artists substantially and helped them to establish a position in an art historical context. Collectors quite often can use their insight and power to support and influence academic research.
However, as the motives of academic research and of collecting are supposed to be independent from one another, it is difficult to compare. They are part of the same ecosystem, which wouldn’t function if either side would be predominant. In the long term, both the artist and academics benefit from the support and recognition of individual collectors and a gallery acts as a connecting piece in between.
展览现场，曹雨，《我有水蛇腰》，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Exhibition View, Cao Yu, “I Have an Hourglass Waist”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
艺讯网：麦勒画廊是在2005年进驻北京草场地，而您已是家族中从事艺术品交易的第三代人，现在的藏家和市场距您父亲执掌麦勒画廊时已经有了明显的变化，您是否同意“真正了解中国当代艺术的藏家正在减少”的观点？您觉得这对北京画廊业的发展会有什么影响？
CAFA ART INFO: Galerie Urs Meile has settled its space at Caochangdi, Beijing in 2005, and you are the third generation owner of your family’s business. The current collectors and market have changed significantly when compared to the circumstances when your father took charge of the gallery, do you agree with the opinion that “collectors who truly understand Chinese contemporary art are decreasing?” What impact do you think this will have on the development of galleries in Beijing?
小麦先生：我并不同意“真正了解中国当代艺术的收藏家正在减少”的说法。
自从我父亲在上世纪九十年代中期第一次到中国以来，情况环境已经发生了巨大变化。从经济、政治和逐渐发展的文化方面，中国目前在世界上都具有着截然不同的重要意义。艺术家、画廊、博物馆、策划人或者说写作者的数量都极大地增加。最重要的是，科技进步已使得（几乎）每个人能同时访问无限量的信息。
对“某个人”能够真正了解中国当代艺术我表示谨慎怀疑，并且我也不认为这是收藏家的任务。在我眼中，收藏家有着自由的精神意志，他被好奇心驱使着，他被有创造力的人所吸引，他是想通过艺术来了解自己。通常而言，收藏可以看作是自我认同的过程。一位收藏家可以通过自己的藏品来表达他如何看待自己和周遭的世界，而不是描述世界的现实情况。这也是收藏与不可避免公正性和合理性的学术研究之间的差异之一。
展览现场，托比亚斯·雷贝格，《Blind and a little less》，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Exhibition View, Tobias Rehberger, “Blind and a little less”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
Mr. René Meile: I would not agree in saying “collectors who truly understand Chinese contemporary art are decreasing”.
The circumstances have changed dramatically since my father first came here in the mid 90’s. China has a completely different relevance in the world - economically, politically and increasingly also culturally. The number of artists, galleries, museums, curators or writers has increased exponentially. Above all, technological development has made an infinite amount of information simultaneously accessible to (almost) everyone.
I doubt that ‘one’ can truly understand Chinese contemporary art and I don’t think that this is a collector’s assignment. In my eyes, a collector is a free spirit who is driven by his curiosity, who’s drawn to creative people, someone who wants to learn more about himself through art. Collecting generally can be seen as a process of self-identification. Through his own collection a collector expresses how he sees himself and the world around him rather than a description of how the world actually is. This is also one of the differences to academic research where impartiality and rationality are inevitable.
艺讯网：2020年春节新型冠状病毒突然在中国开始传播并逐渐蔓延到全球，疫情爆发时您在哪里？您的工作和生活是否受到了影响？身边的人有怎样的所感所想？
CAFA ART INFO: COVID-19 suddenly began to spread in China after the Chinese New Year of 2020 and it has now become a pandemic. Where were you when the epidemic broke out? Has your work and life been affected? What do people living around you think about it?
小麦先生：疫情爆发时我在瑞士。它影响着每个人的生活，尤其是我们生活着的全球化的世界。无论人们来自这个世界上的哪个地方，它都使人们感到脆弱和恐惧。
Mr. René Meile: I was in Switzerland when it broke out. It affects everyone’s life especially in a globalized world we live in. It makes people feel vulnerable and scared no matter where on this world they come from.
展览现场，王兴伟，《面相之谜》，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Exhibition View, Wang Xingwei, “The Code of Physiognomy”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
艺讯网：因为疫情影响，今年798的画廊周、香港巴塞尔等艺术活动都受到影响而暂时中断，有悲观的情绪认为，这将对中国的艺术市场行情“雪上加霜”，您怎么看待疫情对中国当代艺术圈的影响？
CAFA ART INFO: Due to the impact of the pandemic, activities such as Gallery Week in 798 Art District and Art Basel Hong Kong were temporarily postponed. There is a pessimistic view that this will “add insult to injury” for the art market in China, what do you think of the influence of the pandemic on the world of the contemporary Chinese art market?
小麦先生：我认为现在评估这种全球流行病所带来的影响还为时过早。它似乎有可能永久影响我们的生活方式。我希望它会永远给人们看待生活的态度、生命之脆弱性以及我们的自然耗竭留下警示。
Mr. René Meile: I think it’s too early to evaluate the impact of this pandemic. It seems to have the potential to affect our way of living permanently. My hope is that it will leave behind an impression on people’s attitude towards life, its fragility and the exhaustibility of our nature.
展览现场，鞠婷，《麟》，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Exhibition View, Ju Ting, “Scales”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
艺讯网：艺术世界现在的发展变化非常快，除了实体空间展览还有线上展览，国内画廊业对展览的呈现速度也呈两极化，一方面是强调品质的坚守保持传统的步调，一方面是迅速循环迎合许多年轻艺术家急于成名和越来越快的艺术品更新速度，在这样的环境下，麦勒画廊如何保持自己的步调与展览规划？
CAFA ART INFO: The art world is now changing very fast. In addition to concrete exhibitions at galleries, there are online exhibitions. When considering the speed of exhibitions, there is also a polarizing tendency: on the one hand, some galleries insist on maintaining quality with their traditional pace; on the other hand, young artists are eager to become famous and the their art creations are becoming faster and faster. In such an environment, how can Galerie Urs Meile maintain its own development and exhibition planning?
小麦先生：科技发展创造了很多新空间。艺术家们自然希望探索这些空间及其可能性。问题是这些新形式及其开发的惊人速度，被承载这些形式的社群所能吸收的程度如何？画廊的发展和展览计划在很大程度上取决于艺术家创作新作品的节奏。有一些艺术家具有更稳定的输出，而另外一些艺术家具有较长（但非常重要的）沉思期并且没有实际的创作。画廊工作的内容之一就是将每位艺术家的个人节奏与市场同步。新技术例如在线展览等如果以智能方式使用的话，可以帮助画廊更快地接触到更广泛的受众，获得更全面的信息。当前线上展览的内容通常非常琐碎，容易导致信息过载而不是产生附加价值。它与观众没有直接联系。
无论是在实体空间中展览还是在线上展览，艺术创作和艺术展示都无法加速，而且艺术展示是一个微妙精巧的过程，需要时间来适应新技术的可能性。
Mr. René Meile: Technological development has created many new rooms. Artists naturally want to explore these rooms and their possibilities. The question is how are these new forms and the tremendous speed they are developed digested by the community that is carrying it?
The development and exhibition planning of the gallery depends very much on the rhythm of artists to develop new works. Some have a more steady output while others have long (but very important) periods of contemplation with no physical output. One job of a gallery is to sync the individual rhythms of each artist with the market. New technology such as online exhibitions can help also a gallery to have faster access to a bigger audience with more comprehensive information - if it’s used in an intelligent way. The content of current online exhibitions is quite often very trivial and rather leads to an information overload than an additional value. It doesn’t connect with the audience.
The creation of art can not be accelerated and the presentation of art, no matter if it’s in a physical or online exhibition space, is a delicate process that needs time to adapt to new technological possibilities.
展览现场，胡庆雁，《空洞的，多余的》，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Exhibition View, Hu Qingyan, “Absent & Superfluous”, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
艺讯网：麦勒画廊代理的艺术家中胡庆雁和曹雨都是从中央美术学院雕塑系毕业，您是如何了解他们的作品并建立合作？您又是如何做出选择判断艺术家的未来走向？麦勒画廊是否会对代理艺术家有干涉?
CAFA ART INFO: Hu Qingyan and Cao Yu, are two artists represented by Galerie Urs Meile, they graduated from the Sculpture Department of the Central Academy of Fine Arts. How did you learn about their work and establish a collaboration? How do you make choices when you preview the future direction of the artists? Will Galerie Urs Meile interfere with represented artists?
小麦先生：多年来每个人都围绕着一些独特而又志同道合的人形成了自己的圈子，画廊也是如此。在开始合作之前，艺术家和画廊通常都已经相互熟悉了，彼此对艺术有着相似的看法，也欣赏彼此的工作和态度。所以胡庆雁和曹雨后来也是这样。无论是在中国还是国际上，我们都认为他们的作品对当代艺术发展作出了特别的贡献。他们都对作为艺术家矢志不渝（通常这意味着献身于艺术）并且有着专业的态度。这些都是预判艺术家未来发展的重要指标。
从理论上而言，艺术家和画廊共同创造的独特微观世界可以防止来自其他艺术家和画廊的主动干扰。艺术界和市场也通常不赞成这种做法。但是当然在现实中众所周知也会发生。
Mr. René Meile: Over the years each individual creates a microcosm with a unique group of like-minded people around itself - so does a gallery. An artist and a gallery have usually been acquainted with each other already before they start collaborating. They share similar ideas about art and appreciate each other’s work and attitude. So it happened with Hu Qingyan and Cao Yu later on. We regard both of their work as a unique contribution to the development of contemporary art, in China but as well internationally. They bring along both, an absolute commitment to be an artist (which often times means to sacrifice) and a professional attitude. These are all important indicators to predict a future development of an artist.
Theoretically, the unique microcosm an artist and a gallery create together prevents from actively interfering with other artists or galleries. Also, the art scene and the market often does not approve of this. But of course in reality it does happen as we all know.
艺讯网：麦勒画廊一直坚持着驻地项目，许多麦勒画廊当时发现并支持的艺术家们现在已经成为中国当代艺术在国际上的代表人物，伴随着中国当代艺术经历了洗练期和沉淀期，现在麦勒画廊的驻地项目有什么新发展和变化吗？
CAFA ART INFO: Galerie Urs Meile has always adhered to the residency project. Many artists Galerie Urs Meile discovered and supported have gone on to become international representative figures of Chinese contemporary art. While Chinese contemporary art has gone through the polished and precipitated period, are there any new developments and changes in the residency project of Galeries Urs Meile?
艺术家高嫣，驻留项目，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Rebekka Steiger at the residency studio, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
艺术家米歇尔·孔德，驻留项目，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Michel Comte at the residency studio, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
小麦先生：驻留项目确实是非常接近我们画廊核心经营理念的问题。从历史上看，东西方的艺术家们总是相互影响，并为他们的作品带来了意想不到的新方向。正是这种精神和对艺术普世价值的坚定信念使得我们得以继续从事该项目，并且一直未改初衷。
Mr. René Meile: The residency project is really a matter very close to the heart of our gallery. Historically, artists from the East and West have always influenced each other and have lead to unexpected new directions in their work. It is this spirit and a firm belief in an universal value of art that keeps us doing this project and hasn’t changed since the beginning.
艺讯网：当下许多年轻艺术家受到“网红”现象与经济思维的影响，也出现了很多所谓的“网红”展览，您如何看待这种现象？您又如何看待年轻艺术家与受众的培养？
CAFA ART INFO: Many young artists are affected by the phenomenon of “Internet influencers” and economic thinking and there are so many so-called exhibitions that feature “internet influences”. What do you think of this phenomenon? What do you think of the cultivation of young artists and audiences?
小麦先生：我认为有一些有意思的网红，他们总是有不仅仅可以在社交媒体平台上分享的信息，他们只是将其作为他们创意输出的舞台。然而大多数情况下，他们非常容易受到虚拟世界快速发展的影响；他们不间断地传递着新趋势潮流。尽管我确信他们会产生大量的产品需求；但是我想他们中大多数人并未希望参与到有关当代艺术深刻而持久的讨论中。
互联网是一种相对较新的现象，它仍以一种更直观的方式逐渐成为我们日常生活的一部分。我不知道这是否最终会为人们的生活带来更多或者更少的自由，但我相信艺术家通常认为创作自由是最有价值的条件。
Mr. René Meile: I think there are a few interesting internet influencers and they always have a message to share that goes beyond just their social media platform. They simply use it as a stage for their creative output. Mostly however, they are very much subject to the fast pace of the virtual world; they are damned to deliver new trends without intermission. While I’m sure they generate demands for a lot of products, I doubt that most of them want to participate in a profound and enduring discourse about contemporary art.
The internet is a relatively new phenomenon that is still in the process of becoming part of our daily life in a more intuitive way. I don’t know if this will eventually bring more or less freedom to people’s life but I believe that artists usually consider creative freedom the most valuable condition.
艺术家尤莉亚·斯坦纳，驻留项目，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Julia Steiner at the residency studio, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
艺术家诺特·维塔尔，驻留项目，麦勒画廊， 中国北京
Not Vital at the residency studio, Galerie Urs Meile, Beijing, China
艺讯网：麦勒画廊一直重视艺术家、观众、画廊主与藏家在画廊中面对面的交流，未来是否会考虑对艺术教育关注比重的提高？是否考虑增加互动项目的比例？
CAFA ART INFO: Galerie Urs Meile has always attached importance to the face-to-face communication among artists, viewers, gallery owners and collectors in the gallery. Will you consider increasing the focus on art education in the future? Or increasing the proportion of interactive projects?
小麦先生：当然是的。有一些有趣的新工具非常接近于面对面的交流，即使没有实际的会面地点也能使我们跟大家分享有关我们艺术家最新进展的信息，同样重要的是，我们也可以了解圈子里的更多见闻和观点。
Mr. René Meile: Yes, definitely. There are interesting new tools that come quite close to face-to-face communication even without meeting physically in one location. It allows us to share more about our artists new development and, equally important, to learn more about our circle’s views and opinions.
图片由受访者本人提供，致谢麦勒画廊。
Photo Courtesy of the Interviewee and Galerie Urs Meile.
注：本文仅代表受访者本人观点，不代表中央美术学院艺术资讯网机构立场。
Note: The views and opinions expressed in this interview are those of the interviewee and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of CAFA ART INFO and its employees.
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